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Thread: Speaker Models and Placement Options for Dedicated Theatre

  1. #1
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    Speaker Models and Placement Options for Dedicated Theatre

    Hello Dawn,

    I am hoping to get your input on how to implement Triad speakers in a home theatre.
    Basically, the models of Triad speakers and placement options that would be optimal for my room.

    I have also contacted Triad Support about this, and have heard back once.
    I have asked Support some more detailed questions, and I am waiting to hear back.
    In the meantime, I would like to hear from more than one expert anyway before I finalize my theatre plans, as opinions on theatre design may vary.
    Support did mention that, at CEDIA, New Rules For Atmos (system design) with Dolby Labs were finalized.
    However, I do not know what these new rules are.
    Does this mean that there is a new white paper for Atmos? Do you have a link to these new design rules?

    Some background info:

    I plan on putting together a home theatre with projector and screen in an existing room. I will probably use Triad speakers.

    My room is small, only about 12 feet long (actually, closer to 11’ 10”) and roughly 94” high. The front and back walls have framing over heating duct work (Soffit) that extends about 7” down from the ceiling and about 26” into the room, so the ceiling height in these areas is about 87”.
    This theatre room opens into another room that is roughly 34’ by 14’ (there are no doors at entrance to theatre room).

    I have attached a rough drawing of the room (top view looking down).

    If the projector is close to the back wall and the screen is tight against the front wall then I am guessing that the distance from projector lens to screen would be around 10 feet.
    I think that a 2:35:1 or 2:40:1 screen that is about 100 inches wide (about 109” inches diagonal) would be a good size (but this could change once I get a projector and test the image size for preference). I plan on using a conversion lens like the Navitar HDSSW08 or HDSSW065 to achieve this image size.
    For now, I will consider that this size is ideal. This is assuming that the seating will be about 3 feet away from the back wall, so a viewing distance of about 9 feet.

    I am leaning toward a regular vs. acoustically transparent screen (cost of the screen is a concern and also there is a stud in the center of the wall where the center speaker would go. This is a finished and painted wall, so tearing it apart and rearranging the stud for the center speaker would add more cost. Plus, I would prefer the optimum picture quality that a regular non-transparent screen could give.)

    I would like to do Dolby Atmos/DTS:X, such as 5.1.2 or 5.1.4 (possibly one more sub if needed).
    The sub will likely be a different brand.

    There will only be one or two people using the room 95% of the time, so the two end seats will not be a priority for audio.

    I should also mention that I would prefer doing a minimal, clean looking front wall. Ideally, the screen/movie would be the only thing to see up front when the lights are off and the movie is playing, and it would appear to “float” in front of me as some people refer.
    At the moment, I am thinking of surrounding the screen with a dark material like black velvet (or some black acoustically transparent material) using a fabric track system, where the front wall as well as the sides and ceiling would be covered a couple of feet out with dark, light absorbing material. Underneath the material at appropriate locations, I will probably place sound absorbing panels/bass traps. I would place such panels on the sides and back of the room as well. For bass traps, I might do triangular corner traps on top and bottom (for example, above and below where the front corner speakers might be located).

    I rather not have speakers visible and sticking out into the room in order to have a nice flat front wall (therefore not having light reflect off the speakers, which would not only affect picture quality but also bring visual attention/distraction). As long as it is not much of an audio compromise.
    To have the flat front wall “look,” I was thinking the Triad on wall or incorner speakers might work and easily hide behind an acoustic/speaker fabric due to their shallow depth?

    From what I understand, because my room size is small, the Bronze series would be good (vs. a larger room where Silver or Gold might be required)?


    Questions – based on seating being placed about 3 feet away from the rear wall, using a regular (non-acoustically transparent) screen and optimizing for the two middle seats (since the two outer seats will very rarely be used):

    How many speakers is ideal (5.1.2, 5.1.4 etc...)?

    What model of speaker should I use for the front left and right, front centre, surrounds and Atmos heights/tops?

    Where should I place the surrounds and Atmos (top) speakers?

    (I am planning to place the front left and right speakers in the front corners at sitting ear height and the centre speaker directly under the screen as close to the screen as possible.)

    If more than one configuration or speaker model is appropriate, I would like to hear about the different options.

    I appreciate any help that you can offer.

    Thank you for your assistance.
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  2. #2
    Administrator DigitalDawn's Avatar
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    Hi and thanks for visiting our new forum.

    I contacted Steve at Triad to find out about the new Dolby Atmos rules. I should know more next week.

    I think most of your plans are correct but there are a few things to consider.

    LCRs: Yes, IW Bronze/4 LCRs would be a great size for this theater. But please keep in mind that the opening to the other room will affect the sound/room size. In order to effectively use the Bronze LCRs I would (at the least) put up B-Fold doors to enclose the theater area. This is a very inexpensive solution and will keep the area separate. Also, if you want the three front speakers to sound the same don't put the Right/Left speakers in the corners, as bass-loading will make them have a fuller sound than the center channel. Keep them at least a few feet from the corners if possible.

    Surrounds: Go with IW Bronze/4 Surrounds (bipole configuration) for the rear surround speakers. They are more directional than dipoles and would work fairly well in your configuration. They would work best if you could move your sofa another couple of feet away from the back wall.

    Atmos Height Speakers: I would Use the IC Bronze/8 LCRs for your Atmos speakers. Here are guides that will help you determine proper placement for your Atmos speakers. Since you have a pretty small room you could get away with only two Atmos speakers -- especially if you close off that room opening. If you are going to use only two Atmos speakers, then you should consider the IW Bronze/4 Surrounds (bipole configuration), as they have wider dispersion and would cover a larger area when placed in the ceiling.

    Subs: Unlike LCRs, here's where corner reinforcement is a great idea. Please your subs in diagonally opposing corners for the strongest bass.

    Check out Triad's room size guide for more info.

    Electronics:
    I would also consider Panamorph lenses. I'm using their long throw model and it's been great!
    Authorized Dealer: Triad Speakers, Denon, Marantz, Sony, JVC,
    Screen Innovations, Stewart Filmscreen, Panamorph, and Oppo.


    Contact us for assistance, we are happy to help.

    Dawn@EgretElectronics.com
    561-745-6186


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    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalDawn View Post

    LCRs: Yes, IW Bronze/4 LCRs would be a great size for this theater. But please keep in mind that the opening to the other room will affect the sound/room size. In order to effectively use the Bronze LCRs I would (at the least) put up B-Fold doors to enclose the theater area. This is a very inexpensive solution and will keep the area separate. Also, if you want the three front speakers to sound the same don't put the Right/Left speakers in the corners, as bass-loading will make them have a fuller sound than the center channel. Keep them at least a few feet from the corners if possible.
    Due to (current) planned size of screen at about 100" wide (plus a few inches of border), that leaves me only around 17" from screen border to side wall for each of the front left and right speakers.
    I could move the speakers into the room, but the room is small and would take away from the nice and "clean' front wall that I am after.
    For now, I would prefer to try to make the front wall "clean" and to do so in such a way that would allow me to get the best audio for such a set up. The audio might not be ideal, but the best configuration for the situation may perhaps be close enough.
    I have attached a couple of photos found online to illustrate what I mean about the "clean" front wall.

    One corner of the front wall also has a small alcove/recess to consider.

    So for the front left and right speakers:
    Looking at the Triad website, I was thinking the best options here might be the Onwall Bronze LCR or Incorner Bronze Sat. There is also the Inroom Bronze Sat and Inroom Bronze LCR to consider.
    As the Triad speakers are custom made, can the Onwall Bronze LCR be constructed such that the drivers (even though fixed) are aimed at a certain angle toward my main listening position (instead of straight ahead)?
    Does the Incorner Bronze Sat attach to the corner walls at a fixed angle or can the whole enclosure be attached such that it is angled toward the main listening position?
    If an Inroom Sat or Inroom LCR is placed right against the walls in the corner, will an AVR room equalization adjust the left and right speakers to sound more like the centre (i.e., reduce bass gain)?

    Would a curtain, such as black velvet, also be effective instead of B-Fold doors in consideration of sound?

    I don’t see an Onwall version of the centre speaker. Does Triad make a custom Onwall version of the centre speaker?
    What about the Onwall Bronze LCR placed horizontally?
    Like asked above, can a horizontal Onwall Bronze LCR be constructed such that the drivers (even though fixed) are aimed at a certain angle toward my ear height (instead of straight ahead, since they will be below the screen and below ear height)?



    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalDawn View Post
    Surrounds: Go with IW Bronze/4 Surrounds (bipole configuration) for the rear surround speakers. They are more directional than dipoles and would work fairly well in your configuration. They would work best if you could move your sofa another couple of feet away from the back wall.
    For the surrounds:
    You mention, “rear surround speakers.”
    I take it that you are referring to the regular (“side”) surrounds that would be part of, for example, a 5.1 system and not the back surrounds that would be found behind the listening position on the back wall of, for example, a 7.1 system (i.e., speakers six and seven).

    Would monopoles be preferred if it were not for the shorter surround speaker distance? Or are bipoles now preferred, regardless of distance, because of the new Atmos design rules?

    Where do think the surround bipoles should be placed?
    Each speaker between the middle and outer seats along the back wall (and near ear height or slightly above)?
    This would place the speaker close to 3 feet away from the nearest listener for Onwalls (and a little further for Inwalls obviously).
    Both in the rear corners? This would place the speakers about 4 feet from the closest middle listener (the positions that I care about for audio).
    Other position?
    Note: the Onwall surrounds would allow for more flexible placement.

    If having each bipole speaker between the middle and outer seats along the back wall is one of the best locations then why are bipoles better here than having an Onwall LCR (or Onwall Sat) that is facing straight ahead? The distance is the same, but the dipole speaker is the one with the tweeter that is actually pointed more toward the ears. So why not just have a monopole in the corners for surrounds?

    Since the rear corner speakers would be further (about 4 feet) away from the middle listeners:
    And if rear corners are better than rear wall, any comments on having Incorner Bronze Sat, Inroom Sat or Inroom LCR at the rear corners for surrounds?

    My concern about bipole surrounds is how they would affect imaging versus a monopole. For example, imaging between a left front speaker and left surround or between the left surround and right surround or between left surround and left atmos speaker etc...
    Do you have any comment on that?
    I suppose my understanding is that an Atmos setup (or even just 5.1) would be better with more precise imaging instead of diffuse sound.



    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalDawn View Post
    Atmos Height Speakers: I would Use the IC Bronze/8 LCRs for your Atmos speakers. Here are guides that will help you determine proper placement for your Atmos speakers. Since you have a pretty small room you could get away with only two Atmos speakers -- especially if you close off that room opening. If you are going to use only two Atmos speakers, then you should consider the IW Bronze/4 Surrounds (bipole configuration), as they have wider dispersion and would cover a larger area when placed in the ceiling.
    For the Atmos heights:
    I would like to do 4 Atmos top speakers if that will sound better than 2.
    Do you think that 4 Atmos heights will work for my small room? Considering separation between the heights and the bed layer, especially surrounds (probably somewhere between 3 and 4 feet depending on locations)?
    Hopefully 4 heights could work, but if two heights are better due to separation then so be it. I guess this also depends how you answer my questions regarding the surrounds. If the surrounds can be placed in the rear corners, then I would think that the placement of 4 Atmos heights should be easier to calculate. I have no idea though. I am just going by how Dolby lays them out on their website).

    If placing the 2 rear Atmos heights (out of 4) either in or on the ceiling at the very back of the room (and disregarding for now the horizontal axis along wall) then I calculate the angle from ear to speaker to be roughly 35 degrees from vertical (rear Atmos speaker is roughly 32 inches horizontal behind and 45 inches up vertical).
    Would the front two Atmos heights also be placed roughly the same angle forward (symmetrical to rear heights)? (so in this example, 35 degrees from vertical forward, which would be roughly 37 inches horizontal forward and 52 inches up vertical)

    Regarding the Inceiling 8 LCR or even the Inceiling SealedRound or the new (to be released) Inceiling 9 RotaSat which is aimable, there may be an issue with fitting any of these into the soffit part of the room (i.e., the rear heights). Inceiling mounted speakers that are deep (over 4 inches) could be a no go due to the duct taking up space within the soffit. They should be able to fit in the middle of the room (i.e., the front heights).
    On the other hand, something like the Inceiling 8 LCR could fit vertically at the top of the back wall with the drivers pointed down. But this might result in less separation between the bed layer.

    Can the Onwall surround or Inwall 4 surrounds be attached on or in the ceiling respectively?
    You mention that the dispersion for these is good, but you are probably referring to the horizontal axis.
    What is the vertical dispersion? Is it good enough for rear ceiling use (with drivers about 35 degrees from vertical to ear)?


    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalDawn View Post
    Electronics:[/B] I would also consider Panamorph lenses. I'm using their long throw model and it's been great!
    I thought about Panamorph awhile ago, but according to Panamorph even their shortest throw lens is still not good enough to work at my short throw distance of 10 feet. Not to mention that a curved screen would be required.
    A conversion lens like Navitar is the best option that I have found.

    I know that there are many questions here (sorry), but I am just trying to do the best job that I can.

    I look forward to your response.
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  4. #4
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    Don't go with the InCorner Sat for this room, as it won't play very loud. However, if you could move the InWall Right and Left speakers in toward the screen (even 12 inches) it would be highly recommended and you wouldn't need to angle the speakers. If you wish to angle the speakers toward the listener, you would need to use the OnWall Bronze LCRs and use wood blocks behind them to get the angle you're looking for. There are no custom solutions that would accomplish this. Keep in mind that OnWall speakers are quite large compared to the InWall Bronze models. While electronic equalization (Audyssey) can help to some degree, I wouldn't rely on it completely.

    I don't recommend using the LCRs horizontally for serious home theater use, however, Triad can make a custom OnWall Center Channel speaker for an additional cost. They won't be able to aim the drivers, but when mounting you can use wood behind the speaker to get the angle you want.

    As far as surrounds go, Atmos calls for these speakers to be close to or at ear level. You can use monopoles, but you can also use Bipoles which are more directional than dipoles. In your case, you could use InCorner Sats for surrounds, bipole surrounds, or monopoles (InWall Bronze/4 LCRs). I would put them on the side walls, just behind the couch. I would go with either the Bipole surrounds, or the InWalls because their drivers are going to match your fronts.

    As far as the number of Atmos speakers go, it's going to depend on the angles. If you can get the correct angle to the seats (90 to 110 degrees) from the rear, then go with 4. I don't have any dispersion numbers for the surrounds, but at only 4" deep, these might be the best bet for getting 4 Atmos speakers to fit your room.
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    Contact us for assistance, we are happy to help.

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    Don't go with the InCorner Sat for this room, as it won't play very loud. However, if you could move the InWall Right and Left speakers in toward the screen (even 12 inches) it would be highly recommended and you wouldn't need to angle the speakers. If you wish to angle the speakers toward the listener, you would need to use the OnWall Bronze LCRs and use wood blocks behind them to get the angle you're looking for. There are no custom solutions that would accomplish this. Keep in mind that OnWall speakers are quite large compared to the InWall Bronze models. While electronic equalization (Audyssey) can help to some degree, I wouldn't rely on it completely.
    For the wood block, do you mean that the OnWall LCRs (and custom OnWall centre) can be angled using the easy mount bracket plus wood block (placed behind on one side of the speaker), or is a different mount required?
    Looking at the mounting instructions, it looks like the easy mount bracket would keep the speaker flush to the wall without room to place a wood block behind.

    It is good to know about the custom OnWall centre!


    As far as surrounds go, Atmos calls for these speakers to be close to or at ear level. You can use monopoles, but you can also use Bipoles which are more directional than dipoles. In your case, you could use InCorner Sats for surrounds, bipole surrounds, or monopoles (InWall Bronze/4 LCRs). I would put them on the side walls, just behind the couch. I would go with either the Bipole surrounds, or the InWalls because their drivers are going to match your fronts.
    Okay, so that establishes what would be the two best surround choices for the two middle seats.
    Your opinion on the surround placement has got me thinking about which of the two options might be best. I have been studying the room, and this has also led me to think about the outer seats again.

    I know that I wrote that the two middle seats are my primary concern.
    And not that I need more choices to agonize over. However, I might as well give some thought to having the outer seats occupied as well.

    If all four seats are considered for surround speaker placement, would this change your suggestions?
    Perhaps bipoles on the rear wall, located closer to the corner and behind the heads of the people sitting in the outer seats?
    This may allow for first reflection off the side wall for the outer seats along with more direct sound to the middle seats?
    As I am considering to go with bipoles on the side walls anyway, then maybe moving them to the rear wall will give similar sound to the middle seats but also provide better sound to the outer seats?


    As far as the number of Atmos speakers go, it's going to depend on the angles. If you can get the correct angle to the seats (90 to 110 degrees) from the rear, then go with 4. I don't have any dispersion numbers for the surrounds, but at only 4" deep, these might be the best bet for getting 4 Atmos speakers to fit your room.
    Can you confirm if the Onwall surround and the Inwall 4 surrounds are able to be attached on and in the ceiling respectively?

    I just saw that the InCeiling Openround is only around 4” deep, but since it is not sealed you would still recommend the surrounds for the top Atmos positions?


    Could you please also address my door question:
    Would a curtain, such as black velvet, also be effective instead of B-Fold doors in terms of sound?

    Thank you.
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  6. #6
    Administrator DigitalDawn's Avatar
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    Mounting: For the surrounds you would need longer screws and some sort of wood block on one side of the speaker to angle it. For LCRs you need to get creative and make a custom, angled board to mount the speaker on.

    Surround Placement: Because of the proximity of the seats to the rear wall, I would still prefer the surrounds go on the side walls. Putting them on the rear wall would be worse for all seats.

    Atmos: Yes, the OnWall Surrounds (Bipoles) are also designed to go in the ceiling. The caveat is that the ceiling must be 9 feet or less in height. No problem for you there. Definitely go with the surrounds instead of the rounds.

    A curtain would certainly help, especially if you can get it to sonically match any other wall treatments you might be using. Make sure it falls to the floor.
    Authorized Dealer: Triad Speakers, Denon, Marantz, Sony, JVC,
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    Contact us for assistance, we are happy to help.

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    For the surrounds you would need longer screws and some sort of wood block on one side of the speaker to angle it. For LCRs you need to get creative and make a custom, angled board to mount the speaker on.
    I think I know what you mean now for the LCRs.

    Hopefully they sound fine just pointed straight ahead (to make mounting easier).


    Surround Placement: Because of the proximity of the seats to the rear wall, I would still prefer the surrounds go on the side walls. Putting them on the rear wall would be worse for all seats.
    Interesting.

    I do not have theatre seats yet (or anything else for the theatre room, since I am in the planning stages).
    However, to fit four side-by-side seats in the room would mean that the outer seats will only be a couple of inches from the side walls (I am currently looking at Palliser seats and going by their online measurements).

    If the surrounds are on the rear wall then the distance to the listening position of the outer seats would be around 2.5 to 3 feet.
    But if the surrounds are on the side wall close to the seating (vs. closer to the rear wall) then the distance to the listening position of the outer seats would be 1 foot more or less.
    I would not have guessed that this would still be preferred.
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  8. #8
    Administrator DigitalDawn's Avatar
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    My reasoning is that rear mounted speakers at only 3 feet behind would be worse for everyone. But if you mount the speakers in the sides (near the rear), you would have better placement for the main two seats. Basically, you want to be at least 5 feet feet from the speakers if possible.
    Authorized Dealer: Triad Speakers, Denon, Marantz, Sony, JVC,
    Screen Innovations, Stewart Filmscreen, Panamorph, and Oppo.


    Contact us for assistance, we are happy to help.

    Dawn@EgretElectronics.com
    561-745-6186


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